Tuesday, July 17, 2007

Answering the Cave Man's question

Vir Speluncae Catholicus asked me a question, in a thread about cozying up with the SSPX, which I promptly and politely answered, but he has deigned not to allow the answer to post, Unfortunately, I didn't keep a copy of my answer, but I am pretty sure I can recompose it.

The Cave Man asked:

Karen Marie said...
A "rad-trad", short for "radical traditionalist", is someone who falsely claims to keep the Holy Tradition as an excuse to separate themselves from the Holy Church and from their proper bishop.

Does that include Anglicans, Lutherans and Calvinists who also falsly claim to keep Holy Tradition (as they see it per Henry VIII, Martin Luther, John Calvin) as an excuse to seperate themselves from the Holy Church and from their proper bishop?

Well... does it?


Those Catholic people who have thrown away the Faith and run away from their bishops to go be a Lutheran or Anglican or X-brooker or whatever are indeed in the same pityable position as the SSPXers

The biggest difference between the SSPX, SSPV, CMRI, Spiritus Christi, the followers of the antipopes Michael and Pius XIII, et alii, and (other) Protestants is that the vast majority of the SSPX and company have been Catholic, and have thrown it all away to go their own way, out into the wilderness, in their own willfullness. Whereas the vast majority of Lutherans, Anglicans, etc., have never been in the Church to separate themselves. have never had a proper bishop to guard their faith, and are not running away from anything. In fact, many of them are diligent about seeking out and clinging to every crumb of Truth and Faith us Catholics have left laying about outside over the centuries. We need to evangelize them all.

That's where my attempted comment at the Cave Man's ended. But, I think another paragraph's in order:

This is actually a judgment on us. Many poor cradle-Protestants, with only the crumbs of the Truth and Faith that we've left laying around, have been very graced and become very spiritually sleek and strong, whereas too many of us cradle-Catholics, with full access to the complete banquet and the stuffed pantry of Truth and Faith from babyhood, could not care less, and are such wimpy starvelings. We need to pray for each other and evangelize ourselves, also.

.

13 comments:

Terrence Berres said...

I don't recall the origins of Anglicanism involving much in the way of the people running away from their bishops.

Mimi said...

I really have spent a lot of time thinking about this. It amazes me to contemplate that those in my family who are LDS, or Methodist, or Evangelical - someone actually left the Roman or Orthodox church to make that decision. I'm not wording it right, but I'm agreeing with you in my brain.

Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

You most certainly are polite... and quite obstinant in your refusal to give credit where credit is due.

As history has already pointed out, if it were not for Abp Lefevbre (and the SSPX), there would never have been an Ecclesia Dei Commission, and hence, the recent Motu Proprio. In fact, as I've stated before, without Abp Lefevbre, the TLM would have been smothered to death decades ago.

You also fail to recognoze the next logical chronoligical step... seeing that initially it was everyone associated with the SSPX (to include laity) who was considered excommunicated, yet that was whittled down to just the clerics, Religious and 3d Order... and that was eventually whittled down to just the 4 bishops. Hmmm... from 1 million down to just 4.

But for whatever bizarre reason, you steadfastly refuse to be objective in your thought process.

KM, if you aren't a particularly big fan of the SSPX, then fine. That's your call. It was obvious days ago that we weren't getting anywhere. I see things one way, you see things differently. We agree to disagree. But for whatever reason, that isn't good enough for you.

So, due to your steadfast refusal to be objective (and downright obstinant), I've simply elected to ignore your constant "I hate the SSPX" posts.

To be perfectly honest, I've grown bored with you on this particular thread.

But if it makes you feel better about yourself to devote entire posts to me on your blog, that certainly is your call.

Tony said...

So, Kevin. You take Karen Marie's hospitality on her blog when you don't extend it. Is this how traditional Catholicism is lived?

Had I been Karen, I would have deleted your whole reasoned reply and let you stew, but Karen is much more charitable in that respect than me, and it's a credit to her.

As history has already pointed out, if it were not for Abp Lefevbre (and the SSPX), there would never have been an Ecclesia Dei Commission, and hence, the recent Motu Proprio. In fact, as I've stated before, without Abp Lefevbre, the TLM would have been smothered to death decades ago.

This is simple conjecture on your part with no basis in fact. There have been other societies (most notably the FSSP) which have kept the older rite alive and as a result have been providing huge numbers of new Catholic priests (not schismatic priests). Also, there are numerous priests in the US who have been celebrating the extrordinary expression under indult. I attended one here in town with my daughter to show her a little church history. It's 10 minutes away from my house.

You also fail to recognoze the next logical chronoligical step... seeing that initially it was everyone associated with the SSPX (to include laity) who was considered excommunicated, yet that was whittled down to just the clerics, Religious and 3d Order... and that was eventually whittled down to just the 4 bishops. Hmmm... from 1 million down to just 4.

Seems like the Holy Father is focusing on the ringleaders. If you turn the stubborn donkey's head, the rest of the donkey will follow.

So, due to your steadfast refusal to be objective (and downright obstinant), I've simply elected to ignore your constant "I hate the SSPX" posts.

Wow, Kevin, you see hatred in everyone else's posts. But I guess that thieves think everyone steals.

I can't speak for Karen, but I love my brothers and sisters in the SSPX. I would prefer that they came back to God's true Church and be salt and light for the rest of the parishes. We need their presence in our pews, helping to bring the rest of us the beauty of the extraordinary rite. We need them as liturgy directors, music directors and church architects.

If I hated them I'd prefer they stew in their own chapels, stay out of the Church and go to hell.

BTW, Kevin, it's kind of fun being banned on your blog. It forces me to respond to you on mine and when you invariably rise to the bait, you drive traffic to my site.

Thanks.

Karen Marie said...

I don't hate the SSPX and company, I pity the poor people who have been deceived by them, including the four poor vagante bishops themselves.

Bu policy, I only delete blatant comment spam, "seven naughty words", and comments in violation of Part Three, Section Two, Chapter Two, Article Eight, numbers iii and iv, of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or that place me in violation of number v of the same Article of the Catechism [that's the section about offences against truth, detraction, calumny, etc., and about the proper behaviour of the instruments of social communication]

Terrence Berres said...

"In fact, as I've stated before, without Abp Lefevbre, the TLM would have been smothered to death decades ago."

That's a bit like saying that without Abp Weakland's mishandling of the closing of Messmer High School, it wouldn't be open today.

Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Vir Speluncae Catholicus asked me a question, in a thread about cozying up with the SSPX

KM, from your very first sentence... you've got it wrong.

No one's "cozying up" to anyone. I'm giving credit where credit's due.

Even someone who hates the SSPX, such as yourself, can muster up enough honesty deep within themselves to give just credit to Abp Lefevbre and the SSPX, can't you?
___________________________________

Terrence,
Noooo..... what I'm saying; without Abp Lefevbre, the TLM would have been smothered to death decades ago. You can grasp that, can't you? Or does your hatred of the SSPX blind you as much as it does KM and Toni?

Jordan Potter said...

Okay, so if it weren't for Archbishop Lefebvre's sin, the Tridentine would have been the Motu Proprio.

And if it weren't for the Devil, Jesus would never have been killed, and we wouldn't be saved.

Should I thank the Devil?

As for the question of excommuncation of Catholics who receive illicit sacraments and participate at illegal chapels, that's kind of a case of self-excommunication. If they confess their sin, they're no longer excommunicated. That's a different kind of excommunication than the kind that was caused by the illicit ordinations. Those can only be lifted by the Pope himself, when the bishops repent and return to the Catholic Church.

Jordan Potter said...

"The Tridentine would have been the Motu Proprio"??? What language was that I was trying to speak?

Try this instead: "there would never have been a Motu Proprio."

Jordan Potter said...

Also relevant to the question of excommunication of SSPX members is the ruling from the Vatican upholding Bishop Bruskewitz's decree.

Terrence Berres said...

"... what I'm saying; without Abp Lefevbre, the TLM would have been smothered to death decades ago. You can grasp that, can't you?"

Sure. Hence my analogy. You haven't pointed out any problem with it, you've just reiterated your position.

Anonymous said...

Rest in peace, Karen Marie. You are missed......

Anonymous said...

The SSPX are Catholic. I encourage everyone to read the words of Archbishop Lefebvre in "Open Letter to Confused Catholics". Open your eyes to the truth. We are Catholic but many "catholics" of the mainstream Church have wandered from the Faith of our Fathers